2005-11-29 [death how i long to embrace you]: im a guy.. do you hate me RaineDrop?

2005-11-29 [RabidSphinx]: i can't think of a reason i would...why?

2005-11-29 [death how i long to embrace you]: yay me not hated well you said "i never hated gays, until they started harassing me...:)" im a guy...i think*checks* yup

2005-11-29 [BlindGuardian]: If you don't hate people for being gay why on earth you have a wiki saying you hate homosexuality?

2005-11-30 [zoloftzantac]: [RabidSphinx] I don't think anyone here is on a high horse. You must have known that announcing to the world that you hate homosexuality would draw some negative attention to yourself. I think I understand you better now. I see that you are not really a hateful person. Yes, you have a right to disagree, I would never try to take that right away from you. But look at your wiki! You have given a place for people like [Black~Rose], [rangerstx] and [ShadowmasteR] to freely say things like, "fuck the homo's", "I hate gays" and "DeAtH tO tHe FlAmInG fAgGeTs!". Your wiki is a breading ground for real hate, it even suggests that gays should be killed. It has become a very ugly place.

2005-11-30 [death how i long to embrace you]: ok you two be quite okies now!!!!!

2005-11-30 [zoloftzantac]: [death how i long to embrace you] how is it that I can never understand what the hell you are talking about? If you want to flirt with [RabidSphinx] or talk with her about what is in your pants can you pleas do it in a PM?

2005-11-30 [zoloftzantac]: [death how i long to embrace you], now I realized why I feel snappy towards you. You are the guy who started calling this wiki stupid with your first post here. (before you had even read the very first line of my wiki) So lets try to forgive each other, me for being snappy, and you for being a self proclaimed annoying kid ...

2005-11-30 [death how i long to embrace you]: ummm well in my pants is well boxers ^_^ and of corse none of you can understand me cause me to smart for you

2005-11-30 [death how i long to embrace you]: yup yup dont you just love me

2005-11-30 [The Knight]: WOW man, that comic is amazing! Very illustrative... By the way, is the topic of discusion some irony, or is it meant for discussion? And should we do it in the comments or just post the debate in the wiki?

2005-11-30 [RabidSphinx]: my wiki makes a statement no different than some of the "pro gay" wikis that label ‎ANYONE that even MILDLY disagrees with them as "bigots" and "hate mongers" and ‎‎"homophobes"...they are more ugly than I am with my wiki. Yes, I have a few members ‎that "hate" gays. It is their right to. Just like there are some people in the pro-gay wikis ‎that hate people that object to their lifestyle. The difference between my wiki, and theirs ‎are, none of MY members go to the pro-gay wikis and flame them. In fact, if I hear of ‎any of my members doing any such thing, they are kicked off. The same goes for any ‎member of my pro-life wiki harassing any of the pro-choice wikis.

2005-11-30 [RabidSphinx]: I hate double-standards. So, therefore, it would be rather hypocritical of ‎me to complain about people flaming me when I flame others. I am proud to say I do ‎not flame them on their wikis, or go to their houses and say "you support gay-marriage? well, i don't, and here are all the reasosns that make me better than you because of it", so have the "high ground" when it comes to pointing out their hypocrisy ‎for flaming me for thinking differently when I supposedly "hate" them for thinking ‎different.

2005-11-30 [death how i long to embrace you]: cool im lost but fun

2005-11-30 [Kagomeyasha]: Hmmm, this is pretty interesting, I mean, hearing all of this.

2005-11-30 [lustful.hearts]: yes indeed interesting ohh!!!!

2005-12-01 [Kagomeyasha]: Haha, just because I've been in so many arguements with Raine. XD

2005-12-01 [zoloftzantac]: Hi there and welcome to our new members [The Knight] and [Kagomeyasha]. A few rules for the new folks. Please play nice! Hate is a touchy subject, and people have strong feelings about it. There will be no name calling here. Please try to respect others while posting here. P.S. Homophobe and bigot are names. Please try to avoid attacking other members while you make your points.

2005-12-01 [zoloftzantac]: [The Knight] I like that comic a lot, I'm looking for others. By the way, this is not a pro-gay wiki, it is an anti-hate wiki, so if you find *any* cool anti-hate cartoon please let me know. The topic of discusion is real. There really are people out there that think hate is a good idea, anyone who feels that way is most welcome to post here, as long as they play nice. For now discussion in the comments seems to be working. I think that might be better than doing it in the wiki since if a wiki gets to big it has to be broken up into mutiple pages anyway.

2005-12-01 [zoloftzantac]: Okay [RabidSphinx], I really do see your point. But, "DeAtH tO tHe FlAmInG fAgGeTs!"? What is next? Is the KKK going to start planning hate crimes on your wiki? I'm sure there is some elfpack rule that says you can't advertise killing a group of people. Don't you think it is totally offensive and inappropriate?

2005-12-01 [Kagomeyasha]: I'll try not to pin-point members. =p

2005-12-01 [RabidSphinx]: I have a Nazi on my wiki yes, but I cannot stop him from saying what he wants on the ‎grounds of free-speech. I am obligated to report/deal with any members that attack any ‎other MEMBERS but it is not my place to tell them what they can and can't say in ‎regards to his or her feelings towards a GROUP of people. The EP rules are very clear on ‎this touchy subject. It states I can a wiki that says "I hate homosexuality" but not a wiki ‎that states "I hate homosexuals". There are rules saying I cannot pick on specific ‎members (or name them in my wiki) because they are (in this case) gay. I cannot make ‎‎"anti" wikis based on MEMBERS, but I CAN make wikis based on the ACTS of some ‎members....

2005-12-01 [RabidSphinx]: I do not allow gay-member bashing on my wiki, and comments posted on my wiki that ‎‎are mean towards or against gays are deleted. I think you can all, as liberals, understand ‎‎the first amendment, and respect people’s free speech. "DeAtH tO tHe FlAmInG ‎‎fAgGeTs!" is allowed on here..."DeAtH tO tHe FlAmInG fAgGeT [.insert username ‎‎here]!" is not.‎ whether or not I personally agree with what they say or not is irrelevant. ‎But I run the wiki, and keep things tight with the rules. Would you rather I run the wiki ‎and show as much respect as I do (even if you do not feel it is a lot) or someone who says ‎‎"DeAtH tO tHe FlAmInG fAgGeTs!"? I think my wiki is helping EP in its fight against...

2005-12-01 [RabidSphinx]: hate by giving these people a place to just say what they want and be done, rather than ‎feeling compelled to make their own wiki, that really would be centered more on hate and ‎discrimination.‎ you may disagree with that. but that was the reason behind my making my wiki.

2005-12-01 [catelf]: Your reason behind making the wiki was solely to provide a home for Nazis etc so that they won't make a more violent wiki elsewhere? That seems very charitable... weren't you saying further up the comments that it was created so YOU could express YOUR views? What provoked the change?

2005-12-01 [catelf]: Hi everyone, btw, I've just joined this wiki and I think it's great!

2005-12-01 [RabidSphinx]: The reasons behind my wiki (I have given to the owner of this wiki in better detail in a ‎PM) were that there were no real places ANYONE could go to voice opinions similar to ‎my own. I made my wiki so I could express myself, but learned very quickly, that other ‎members would come there, and not all of them would be as tolerant as I. that is why all ‎my members are given a very strict code of rules to follow when joining my wiki. My ‎wiki is not for "Nazis" thank you very much, I just used my one member as an example ‎to show the diversity of my wiki. [bootboy] is one extreme, [Tesa] (a devout catholic) is ‎another. You cannot judge us all by the words of ONE when we are all so different.‎

2005-12-01 [catelf]: You said "these people" and previously referred to a Nazi - your post implied that you had multiple people with similarly extreme beliefs. Also, you imply you didn't expect people with extreme views to join the wiki - how can that come as a surprise? Your use of the word Nazi was not to show the diversity of the wiki, it was to show how you allow free speech on your wiki - that much is evident from the comments above. Please stop contradicting yourself.

2005-12-01 [zoloftzantac]: Welcome to [catelf] our new member. I think I'll do these reminders when ever a new person comes, I think this wiki could get out of control very quickly and I am concerned about that. Please play nice here. This is a safe zone designed for the free exchange of ideas between people who strongly disagree. I know feelings will be hurt and people will be offended by the content of this wiki, but let us try to play nice and maybe even better understand each other in the end.

2005-12-01 [RabidSphinx]: I am not contradicting myself [catelf] you are drawing false conclusions and purposefully ‎misunderstanding things I have said in hopes of discrediting me and my wiki. I ‎mentioned "Nazi" because it was alluded to in another person's comment.

2005-12-01 [zoloftzantac]: [RabidSphinx] freedom of speech does not always protect hate speech. Hate speech is a criminal offence prohibited in many counties under "incitement to hatred" legislation. It is a crime, and carries a prison sentance in the UK, Canada and Australia. (we are an international community) In Canada, advocating genocide or inciting hatred against any 'identifiable group' can put in in jail for up to 14 years. So, does it matter who said it, or who's wiki said it, or who's web server said it, and/or what country those people live in? I don't know, but if the comment "DeAtH tO tHe FlAmInG ‎‎fAgGeTs!" stays up on the i hate homosexuality wiki then I am going to find out.

2005-12-01 [zoloftzantac]: [catelf] & [RabidSphinx]: When we strongly disagree with another person, or if we don't understand thier point of view, it may seem as if they are contradicting themselves, or as if they are purposefully ‎misunderstanding things. I don't think either thing has happened here. [RabidSphinx] started her wiki to give a voice to a group of people she belongs to, it seems she doesn't like everything that people say there and she is trying to be respectful of everyone's opinions, even the "Nazis" who showed up to post on her wiki.

2005-12-01 [zoloftzantac]: Welcome to [Love like Winter.], our newest member! I know I must sound like a broken record. I think this wiki could get out of control very quickly and I am concerned about that. Please play nice here. This is a safe zone designed for the free exchange of ideas between people who strongly disagree. I know feelings will be hurt and people will be offended by the content of this wiki, but let us try to play nice and maybe even better understand each other in the end.

2005-12-01 [Kagomeyasha]: No offense or anything, but you're sitting here saying that you're wiki is full of "None-Homophobics" When you don't even know. I highly doubt that you interview each one and they spacifically tell you that they aren't. I mean, seriously, why would you make a wiki titled i hate homosexuality if you aren't homophobic...No offense, buuut, the title of that wiki SCREAMS homophobic.

2005-12-02 [zoloftzantac]: I'm going to throw out a definition. Homophobe: One who fears, has contempt for or is prejudiced against lesbians and gay men. I put this together from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=homophobic Does anyone disagree with this definition? By this definition, I would say that every proud member of i hate homosexuality is homophobic, but who cares, it is just a word. The fact is that there are members of i hate homosexuality who say they really hate gays and some of them even say they should die. Yes, they are there. [RabidSphinx] is not one of them.

2005-12-02 [zoloftzantac]: My hope is that [RabidSphinx] feels I hate homosexuality is getting out of control with the hate of homosexuals, and so she joined here to show that she is not a proudly hate filled person.

2005-12-02 [Kagomeyasha]: Things about that wiki just bother me. I find it racist. Personally.

2005-12-02 [BlindGuardian]: I think, as [zoloftzantac] said in former comments, we all have strong feelings about hate. The mere word "hate" says more things than other words which might not give any feelings at all- like "chair" (Unless you're achairs fan, of course... but you get the point ;) . So, arising strong feelings, like hate, against a certain group of people, even when one is a balanced person, can make people overexcited about it, and quickly get out of control.

2005-12-02 [catelf]: I would like to know [RabidSphinx]'s reasons for being a member of this wiki. If you hate homosexuality, you can't hate hate, can you? Unless you're happy to support something that you hate, which is definitely contradictory.

2005-12-02 [Kagomeyasha]: I agree. Please Riane, Tell me your reason's for being here?

2005-12-03 [lustful.hearts]: me too ha ha lol maybe she's here to piss us all of

2005-12-03 [BlindGuardian]: I don't think it's wrong Raine being here, this is a debate wiki, so I guess she must be welcome, even if she has a different opinion.

2005-12-03 [RabidSphinx]: I hate hate, blind, uneducated hate. I am very well educated. My distaste for a person's ‎lifestyle does not mean I am a hateful person, a “hate monger” or anything of the ‎sort. As I have said before, like this wiki, my wiki's title is making a statement using the ‎word "hate". As I said several times before, "I morally, but civilly, disagree with the act ‎of homosexuality" is too long of a tile for a wiki, and SOME of my members DO hate ‎homosexuals. And, as for the term "homophobia" it has the definition as well as a ‎‎"phobia" as someone who is "afraid of sameness, or fears becoming gay"...it also says it ‎is an uncontrollable/ unjustified hatred, which neither is the case with

2005-12-03 [RabidSphinx]: MOST of my members, including myself. I do hate hate. I do NOT "hate preps, hate ‎depressed people, hate people that speak against homosexuals, hate people who can't ‎type…." and I DON’T disrespect people that believe in god by saying he is "a fucking ‎figment in your imagination!"...so [Kagomeyasha]...who here is the hater? Just because I ‎have an opinion that says that homosexuality is not NATURAL does NOT mean I hate ‎gay people. That is why I am here. I hate hate.‎

2005-12-03 [Kagomeyasha]: why did you make a wiki that has "hate" in the title if you don't hate homosexuality? If you don't personally hate it, [RabidSphinx], why are you the one making the wiki? You could have just left that to someone else, if they really wanted that wiki to be there. Seriously, you can't just make it and suddenly say that you don't hate it. and when I use those terms for people, I don't really mean it, but as you say, The title would be way to long.

2005-12-03 [RabidSphinx]: i hate repeating myself [Kagomeyasha]....read my past messages and you will see what i had to say in regards to why *i* made the wiki, rather than someone else. why are you a member of a wiki that has "hate" in the title? look at the title of this wiki and tell me that. then you will have the answer to why my wiki is names such.

2005-12-03 [Kagomeyasha]: You can't just ask me why I've joined a wiki with the title hate in it. You've made wiki's that say crap like that all the time. I joined this wiki because I hate hate. That's why. Just as everyone else in this wiki does. And if you don't, and you hate something, or anything..why are you here? I don't truely hate anything. I seriously can't say that I hate something with a passion.

2005-12-03 [RabidSphinx]: like i can say i hate something with a passion? [Kagomeyasha], do not assume you can even BEGIN to understand me, or why i feel the way i do. you are a hateful person. you broadcast that in your house and in your speach. i ask you, why did YOU join a wiki that has "hate" in the title *points up* and when you can answer that, you will have the answer to why my wiki is names thusly. i am done repeating myself to you.

2005-12-03 [Kagomeyasha]: Because I hate hate! Isn't that reason enough? and don't go on with that crap about "Not understanding me" it's all bullshit. Everyone relates, people are just way too blind to see that. And to arrogent.

2005-12-03 [RabidSphinx]: look at your words right there, and reflect upon them in regards to yourself little girl.

2005-12-03 [Kagomeyasha]: Why is this wiki even here, if we all. "hate hate"? Huh? Becuase no matter what anyone says to tell why they joined, it has to do with hate. This is wiki that doesn't support those who dislike homosexuals. Or rather hate. everyone hates I guess, no one can go around saying they don't as I did. because something out there makes them feel bitter, and that's hate, doll. Seriously, everyone hates. including yourself, as you say, you hate me. and I hate homophobia.

2005-12-03 [RabidSphinx]: i do not "hate" you. i just dislike you greatly. you hate "homophobia" yet again, labeling peolle when it is unjust, rude, and uncalled for. i am here, i'm staying here, i have every right to be here, i have permission to be here. so stop your hating already and live with it.

2005-12-03 [Kagomeyasha]: It's not something you can control. I mean, it's really hard to control my feelings. and I'm not going to try to change the way that I think, for someone such as you. I have people that love me for who I am, how I feel, and how I act to things. I won't change for someone that doesn't like me at all. I'll feel what I want, think what I want, and act how I want. And whoever doesn't like me for WHO I AM, isn't worth my time. Because they're all imposter's trying to be someone that they aren't. They're trying to fit in, because it's not right to speak your mind. Fuck the world, fuck fitting in, I don't care. I've learned not too, it's really not important.

2005-12-04 [RabidSphinx]: i do the same amazingly enought. i speak my mind rather than try to "fit in" that's why, unlike you, i have my OWN opinions.

2005-12-04 [zoloftzantac]: Everyone is welcome here, hate is something that is hard to understand, and getting a better understanding of hate is sometihng we can all do. I have invited people from various hate wiki's here to talk about hate, but none of them have showed up. I think [RabidSphinx] has a lot of guts for sticking to her guns when her opinion is so unpopular. People may show up to discribe their hate, the reasons for "hating" hate, for being unhappy about the hate that they feel, about the experiance of feeling hated or anything else hate related. Some people are not going to make friends here, but I would rather this be a safe place, even for haters, than to have anyone feeling they are being attacked.

2005-12-04 [RabidSphinx]: thank you. i am who i am, and in the words of [Kagomeyasha] "I won't change for someone that doesn't like me at all. I'll feel what I want, think what I want, and act how I want. And whoever doesn't like me for WHO I AM, isn't worth my time. Because they're all imposter's trying to be someone that they aren't. They're trying to fit in"

2005-12-04 [zoloftzantac]: Fighting can get out of control and hurt people's feeling with out anything good coming of it. Besides, as Buddah said, "Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule." People have stong feelings about hate, but hate is what we are here to talk about. I would like us to try to listen to each other with an open ear and understand how other people feel. (and maybe even respect and love each other)

2005-12-04 [lustful.hearts]: oh gosh you all are very confuziling

2005-12-04 [Kagomeyasha]: I never said that you didn't have your own opinions. And I have my own opinions as well. And I wasn't saying that You aren't welcome here. You're just as welcome as anyone else.

2005-12-05 [The Knight]: Whoops, things are getting a little bit heated here. May I make a few statements? 1. Educated-people Hate is as bad as the uneducated one. Knowing about science, philosophy or anything does not mean your hate will be justified. I consider myself an educated man, and I used to work as a teacher so I met a lot of educated people, and trust me, I never found 'reasonable' hate. I do not mean to offend you by this, [RabidSphinx], but I think you are way to young to be sure you won't learn more about the world, life, and hate. I don't say I'm an expert, but long, tiring years of dealing with hateful people makes you wonder if it's worth it. 2. "Great dislike" sounds to me as a paraphrasis of hate.

2005-12-05 [The Knight]: 3. Hate immediately blocks all possibilities of dialogue, understanding and even knowing the other person. If a person hates homosexuality, even though he might not hate gay people, is highly unlikely to open himself to meeting homosexual people, and therefore is missing a part of the world which is worth seeing. Every person has something to teach, to share, and to make the world a better place. 4. Homophobia: "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals", or "aversion to gay or homosexual people or their lifestyle or culture". "Great dislike" would fit this definition well, I think. 5. Although I agree homosexuality is not "natural", I do not

2005-12-05 [The Knight]: believe that is reason enough to hate it. Man has been alienated from his natural ways a long time ago. Since the moment technology kicked in, more or less. Cities are a good example, in my opinion. They perpetuate pollution, and separate human beings from their natural environment, Nature. So I don't think it's fair to point at someone for doing unnnatural things, when we live in an artifitial world. (Or maybe I've been reading too much Ray Bradbury this weekend... yep, it must be that).

2005-12-05 [The Knight]: 6. (I know I'm repeating myself) Look at the comic up there. During the years before the civil war, many people would think their hate to black people was reasonable, and well-founded. Gives you a lot to think about. (Sorry for that, but I love History with a passion I cannot deal with)

2005-12-05 [RabidSphinx]: there is nothing worth seeing in the gay community that i cannot see in the hetero thank you very much. you think i can't open up to gay people than i guess you have never met (or heard of) half my friends and my boyfriend, all of which are either gay or bisexual.

2005-12-05 [The Knight]: Well, let me contradict you: there are things worth seeing. A lot. Not because of being a gay community, but because of being a community. It means there are a lot of individuals with their own talents, experiences and personalities. There are hundreds of things there that you won't find anywhere else. So, I'm confused, you must forgive me. I do not know your wonderful friends, but I find it hard to understand how can it be that you do not consider there is anything worth seeing at the gay community, but half of your friends are gay. And do they know about your extreme disgust for their lifestyle? (Please do not take this as an attack. It's just a question)

2005-12-05 [RabidSphinx]: yes, they do know. but see, i have friends that happen to be gay, not "gay friends"...they do not let them being gay be the defining part of their personality/life. i want nothing to do with the gay community since they have nothing to offer than no other comunity of mixed minorities (such as the hetero comunity) can offer.

2005-12-05 [The Knight]: I got that point, and that is why I said "your friends are gay" and not "you have gay friends". Forgive me if I tell you thins, but I hope you understand why I say it. If you have friends who happen to be gay, and think you have nothing to do with the gay community, then they are not your friends. I don't know in which way you relate to them, but if you do not consider the person as important as yourself, if their fights are not your fights, if their joys are not your joys, then they are not your friends. And I still do not get what makes de difference between your friends that happen to be gay, and the rest of the gay people. Why can you overlook their sexuality and not, say, mine.

2005-12-05 [The Knight]: (I'm not gay, it's just an example) So, with all this, I think you're not being honest, but I'm not sure whether you're not being honest to us, to your friends or to yourself.

2005-12-05 [RabidSphinx]: we like the same music, movies, clothing...we can talk and relate to each other when it comes to family...that is why we are friends...just because i don't finger other girls does not mean i can't relate to my friends, and just because i don't go on double dates with them does not mean i'm not their friend. i'm not part of the "gay community"

2005-12-05 [The Knight]: Of course you're not, as youre not gay yourself. Still, I think that's not enough to make real friends. I don't say you have to be gay to be their friend, I'm just saying, theyre people you get along with quite well. Not friends. Not at all... I'll give you my experience. I'm not a goth. But I have a lot of Goth friends (they DO consider it's the defining part of their personality). And because of being their friend, I got involved in the comings and goings of goths in my town. I simply couldn't help it. I would stand against anyone who says goths are supid/useless/hateful, or anything. I consider them as parts of myself. And just because I do not wear black (actually I do...

2005-12-05 [The Knight]: *points at himself :coughmetalheadcough:*) or have the same nocturnal lifestyle, doesn't mean I don't think their trouble as goths as important as my own. And same the other way around, I know they would inconditionally support metalheads, even though they are not interested in "the ACT and CHOICE of being a metalhead".

2005-12-05 [RabidSphinx]: i do not see how that has anything to do with me...what makes a friend? my deffinition is someone you care about, you trust with secrets, and someone you enjoy hanging out with. my "friends" all meet that criteria...just because i don't go to gay festivities (they do not either, they hate gay pride) does not mean they are not my friend. you are just different. i have a friend that is a druggie, and a friend that is a prostitute too. do i have to do drugs to be friends with my drug-head pal? or sell my body on the street to be able to connect with my whore-ish friend? i think not. if you think otherwise you are on sad indavidual

2005-12-05 [zoloftzantac]: [RabidSphinx], I don't think [The Knight] (or anyone else) is saying you can't be friends with gay people if you are not gay, that is silly so lets get past that. I disagree with your definition of what is a friend. A friend is also someone you stick up for and stand up for, some one you defend, someone you love. I think [The Knight] is asking you why you throw around statements like "I don't hate gay people, I have gay friends" When at the same time you say that gay people disgust you, that you hate the acts that they call love making, and that you avoid everything about them that makes them "people who happen to be gay".

2005-12-05 [zoloftzantac]: [The Knight] said, "Hate immediately blocks all possibilities of dialogue, understanding and even knowing the other person." This rings very true for me, as very much of your post did. Yes, hate itself is a closing off of the mind and heart, and so hate itself is by its very nature, closed minded.

2005-12-05 [RabidSphinx]: their lifestyle disgusts me, not them as a human. my friend that is a cokehead disgusts me too, but that doesn't stop me from being his friend. he just made a bad life desision. same holds true for my friends who are gay. i stand up for my friends, but not for that one aspect of their life. just like i do not stand up for jon's coke addiction. i think drugs are stupid, i support drugbusts and criminal reprocussion for having drugs, but does that mean i hate jon?

2005-12-06 [lustful.hearts]: if things were meant to be right their wouldnt be free choice in this world!!!!!!!!!

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: you have a choice yes, you can chose to do what is right, or what is wrong, but, with that should come the understanding that if you CHOSE to do wrong, there WILL be reprocussions for it. you cannot forget that. you can CHOSE to murder, but remember that there is a reprocussion to that

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: But being Gay isn't a bad decision..It's not even a decision. So, you can't relate them to druggies. They didn't make the choice to like someone of the same sex. And I think that if you ask gay's, quite a few would say that they wish they weren't. You can't help who you like, along with who you love. You can't change your feelings. So if a gay man tried sleeping, and dating women, he would'nt feel like himself. He would just be playing a person that he isn't. And that's why gays are so increadible.

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: whether or not it is a desision or not is a matter off disscussion...

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: don't go into the whole, "chemical imbalence" science thing. T_T;

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: i was not planning on it since this is not a homosexuality debate, but a hate debate.

2005-12-06 [lustful.hearts]: well see if you never had the feeling to like somone of the same sex you would never come to the decission of actuall going ou with a member of the same sex same deal if you like someon o f the opposite sex you have to have the feeling before you can make the same decission its the cycle of life... thats just how it worke so homosexuality is a feeling

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: it is a feeling, but eventually becomes an act if you CHOSE to act in such a way

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: Oh, so you think people that are homosexuals shouldn't get involved with others?

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: others as in? i don't think i quite grasp what YOU mean, but what i was saying was that homosexuals may have a feeling, but that isn't wrong until they make it into an act by their choice to act upone the feeling. (RD's opinion)

2005-12-06 [lustful.hearts]: welll ya its kinda both a feeling and i choicce i just dont like when people say the choice come first that bugs soooo much thats how most kids at my school are and they are all wrong but ill agree with you if you say feeling then choice

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: naw...you have to feel something...i mean, some people just chose to have sex or somethingh or make out with their own sex...but i think they have more underlining problems, mainly concerning their lack of selfrespect for being so easy (meaning they don't care where the sex/kisses come from, as long as they get them)

2005-12-06 [lustful.hearts]: seriously but ya im perfectly fine with people like you yay i dont have to fight with you anymore about this whole thing

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: i never feel the need to fight with anyone over anything...>>

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: I'd have to disagree with you on that one. I mean, to say that they only go to people of the same sex because they have had problems? Well, there are other ways of dealing with those problems. and even when they thin out, they're still feeling the same for other guys/girls. And if homosexuals are just that intense with wanting sex, why don't they get it from the opposite sex as well? You can't say that it's cause they want sex, from anything. Because they're preferably wanting it from that ONE sex.

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: did i say that? no. i said that all homosexual acts start with a feeling (agreeing with [lustful.hearts] BUT also making the observation that there are some people that will just have sex/kiss anyone, bvecause they are obsessed with the act, saying that THEY have problems. you are purposefully misunderstanding me again, trying to creat an argument when no one here wants one

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: I'm not trying to make an arguement, I'm just clearing what I thought that I heard up. You're the one that's asumeing I want an arguement. You think that's what I'm always doing.

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: isn't it what you are always doing? well, i cleared myself up. sorry that you missunderstood what i wrote. i predicted you would, that's why i tried to explain it the first time, so i could not be lured into an argument. ^^

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: Not, it's not what I'm trying to do.

2005-12-06 [lustful.hearts]: ahhh maybe you schould reply that way to wat she writes if you dont want an argument duhj

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: Was I argueing? No, I wasn't. I was just CLEARING up what I was saying.

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: .but you weren't the one saying it, I was, you could have rather said, in a nicer way, that you believed you misunderstood what I said, and I would have tried to clarify, without feeling offended by how you replied. you may not realize it (and I do think you do not mean to) but HOW you reply to people often comes across confrontational rather than just you clarifying something...that's all

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: Sorry that I offended you. I really didn't think that I was.

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: well, i'm sorry that i was not as clear as i thought...i type too fast for my own good, and sometimes make things even MORe consusing by trying to OVER clarify myself...you know? :/

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: I understand. Sometimes I like, just keep rambleing. O.o;

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: me too. we have that in common at least.... >>;

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: *shifty eyes* Yesss, that we do. ^_^;

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: *rambles on about rabling too much*...>>;

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: *rambles with you*....That was intense. :-D

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: it was...hey? i have a question, for you or anyone here really...Curves are sexy?? i mean, you like girls, some input on the topic of debate elsewhere on EP?

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: I was just looking at that wiki, and I'm wondering what it actually means. Can you explain? I mean, I think that it's relating to thin is beautiful but, I'm not sure. =/

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: it is, are curvy women beautiful, or can slim (boobless) women be beautiful too? i seem to have friends (and a boyfriend) who think that ONLY curvey women are beautiful...and some of us *coughs and points at self* CAN'T be curvey...

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: That's not true. Both are beautiful, in my opinion, everyone has something beautiful about them. But, it's kind of rude to say that, just because you don't have "cuuurves" you can't be beautiful. I don't know if I make sense, sorry.

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: i am just having trouble with people thinking that, just because they have curves i don't think they can be beautiful...that is why i made curves are beautiful? there it SAYS those women are beautiful, but not al of us CAn be that kind of beautiful, so have to look at the other option, the option of slimness

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: Well, I don't mean to offend, but ED's bother me slightly. And if that's their way of making themselves thin, I just, don't know. it doesn't mean that they aren't beautiful, I really don't mean that. I have friends that don't have curves, and they're gorgeous. People that say "If you're not like this, you're not beautiful" Are shallow in my mind. =/

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: i don't believe in EDs....

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: Alright, I was just saying that if anyone did.

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: yeah...>>

2005-12-06 [lustful.hearts]: YA some people cant be thin and some cant be curvey but thay oth can be beutiful

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: glad to hear it. i wish my BF thought the same. i think gaining 300 lbs is the only way for him to be happy with me....*sighs*

2005-12-06 [lustful.hearts]: well thats dumb see im curvy and the guys aroundme are the exact opposite that hate us people well not tooo curvy

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: i just want to be slim, and all i'm getting is hate....can't i do or say ANYTHING without being hated for it?!!! sheesh...

2005-12-06 [erowen]: can someone help me with another member

2005-12-06 [catelf]: I don't think in this particular case [lustful.hearts] was "hating" (although I don't consider 'that's dumb' to be a comment that is really hateful) you, but rather your boyfriend for not being happy with you the way you are - which IS slim.

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: what other member do you need help with [erowen]?

2005-12-06 [erowen]: [Reggae] hes been making rude comments to me

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: where? have you blocked them?

2005-12-06 [erowen]: yeah i have, but how do i prevent that in the future

2005-12-06 [RabidSphinx]: well, to prevent it, i would suggest avoiding the person. if they are blocked they cannot message you cagian until you unblock them, but they can still message you on wikis, so, a word of caution, avoid wikis the person is or is likely to be. if that is not possible, then, when you see them on a wiki, tell the owner of the wiki the situation, and make it clear to them that you do not want any trouble, that way, if the person messages you, the owner can warn them, and if they do not stop, a report to the guards can be made.

2005-12-06 [Kagomeyasha]: ..0o;

2005-12-07 [zoloftzantac]: Welcome [erowen]! I'm sorry to hear you are having trouble. You aren't alone tho, [bp] and [emmaneilish] are my two latest anti-fans. [bp] feels like he needs to message me once a day to say, "your a dumbass" and [emmaneilish] just joined elfpack and then messaged me to say, "U FUKIN PERV U R2 OLD 4 THIS" in his first hour. I'm sure it was someone else who made up a fake account so they could insult me anonymously. It is too bad, but there are some very rude people here on EP. You are welcome to talk about it here if you would like to.

2005-12-07 [zoloftzantac]: About thin is beautiful, the old wiki was pro-anorexia, which I can't agree with. http://photobucket.com/albums/v14/gssq83/Blog/anorexia/ano0411.jpg This is an image from the old "thinspiration" gallery from that wiki. Does she look sexy? or happy even? Most of the photos from that page were of thin women, (not anorexic looking) and wanting to be this is fine. True anorexia is a sickness that kills people. On the other hand: I have an ex who was 5'9" and only 105 pounds, she was very thin, but she was not anorexic, she was not trying to loose, but to gain just a little weight. I asure you, she is both beautiful and sexy.

2005-12-07 [lustful.hearts]: woh

2005-12-07 [zoloftzantac]: [Kagomeyasha] says, People that say "If you're not like this, you're not beautiful" Are shallow in my mind. This rings true to me. Beauty is not something that is so easy to define. Besides, some of the most sexy people I have known didn't look "beautiful" on the outside.

2005-12-07 [lustful.hearts]: yup yup me 2

2005-12-07 [zoloftzantac]: I had to block my first person today. [bp] wrote to me and said, "your a dumbass", out of the clear blue sky, then I wrote back and said, "Coward! Why don't you insult me publicly? If you ever grow some balls you can join the public discussion on my wiki, i hate hate. You might try to say something a little more intelligent than "your a dumbass" though. By the way, when you want to say "you are", it isn't "your", it's *you're*. (maybe you'll get to learn all of that good stuff before you drop out of high school)" He didn't like that, and he wrote back repeating that I was a dumbass and he changed his mood to say, "zoloftzantac is fu@king stupid" So I blocked him.

2005-12-07 [zoloftzantac]: wow, I feel better already. Is there a wiki set up to talk about this kind of stuff? like a self help/group therapy kinda thing? Maybe I acted like a jerk to him, but random rude messages (with no explination at all) really piss me off.

2005-12-07 [The Knight]: Okay, back on the topic of thinness, I have a sister who had anorexia, and something most people overlook is that it's not always de desire of being thin(ner and thinner...). It actually means "lack of hunger" and can happen when a person is over-stressed, or in a deep depression, or many other reasons than 'fashion' or whatever you want to call it. She had a real bad time gaining weight, but now she's quite ok and actively fighting against the disease. She is still skinny, and what can I say, she's so damn beautiful (*proud brother comment :D*). Now, as for cusrvy or un-curvy women, I think you cannot say a person is beautiful based only on that. You might say her body is beautiful, but I

2005-12-07 [The Knight]: think a person, a woman, is much, much more than that.

2005-12-07 [zoloftzantac]: I agree [The Knight], and I think it is an important point. When they say, "curvy is beautiful" they are talking about the kind of beauty that is very subjective, but surely only skin deep anyway. I've dated women who were very thin, very thick and inbetween, and they were all beautiful. That is the reason I was interested in them. It had little to do with any specific body type.

2005-12-07 [BlindGuardian]: Oh, my God, there are still real men on Earth! :P . I'm with you guys, I think curves, or the lack of them cannot be determinant on a woman's beauty. And on a personal view, I cannot stand a woman, for curvy she might be, who is not also nice to talk to. I cannot see a person as beautiful if I don't find him or her beautiful 'inside' too... It's good to know there are still some men who think so, because many guys (and also girls, I don't want to be unfair to you, gentlemen) I know are very superficial. Especially my ex-boyfriend... and that's why he is my ex ;)

2005-12-07 [HowlofDoom]: well im glad some1 will let me post my opinions and not delete them just because the disagree...

2005-12-07 [zoloftzantac]: A big welcome to our newest members [James Von Fugger, King of the Zombies!], [deathstalker075] and [HowlofDoom]. We don't have many rules here, but I do ask that you please try to play nice. People feel very strongly about hate, and if we aren't careful this wiki could get out of control very quickly. There will be people posting here who you will disagree with. Please make an extra effort to respect each other here.

2005-12-07 [zoloftzantac]: Hi there [HowlofDoom], yes, that is a promise I made here, that I will never delete posts.

2005-12-07 [BlindGuardian]: *Everybody hail [zoloftzantac]!!*

2005-12-07 [zoloftzantac]: Thanks [BlindGuardian]. :) I'm glad you all like that. The main reason I started a wiki was that I was sick of having my comments deleted from other wikis. I think it is very cool that elfpack keeps all of the old comments. Freedom of ideas can not live along side the destruction of words.

2005-12-07 [BlindGuardian]: Yeah, that's true. And it's also a cool place for debate, as long as we keep a minumum of respect :). And for

2005-12-07 [BlindGuardian]: Yeah, that's true. And it's also a cool place for debate, as long as we keep a minumum of respect :). And as for your ant-fans, I created the Hall of Shame to hang all those guys who come to me with horny proposals, but I guess it can be used for your friends too. I put harder regulations than in The Hi Society so that it doesn't become a mess, but if you have enough reasons to hang this members, message me, and it'll be done :)

2005-12-07 [zoloftzantac]: Another great wiki by [BlindGuardian], your wikis are some of my favorites. If I get any horny proposals I'll let you know. (but I will definatly keep an eye on the hall of shame)

2005-12-07 [BlindGuardian]: Thank you! *blush*. I do what I can... But maybe I wasn't clear, I guess a guy who sends annonymus insulting messages to you can be hung there too... *wink wink*

2005-12-07 [RabidSphinx]: i missed alot...>> what happened?

2005-12-07 [zoloftzantac]: Lets see, I got (at least) two new anti-fans, lots of comments spawned from your body image wiki's, and another great wiki from [BlindGuardian]. Did I miss anything?

2005-12-07 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: hello! I am new to this wiki!

2005-12-08 [zoloftzantac]: Welcome to the wiki [apologies glances and messed up chances]! (This is the part were I sound like a broken record, every time a new person posts I post these reminders) This wiki has been more under control here than I had feared, thank you all for that. The way to keep it up is to play nice and respect each other (especially when you disagree)

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: LOL! I will respect everyones judements becouse we all have our own opinions! so do not worry I will be polite!

2005-12-08 [HowlofDoom]: i love everyone for who they r

2005-12-08 [lustful.hearts]: me too yay lets all have a hugfesty party for hate hateers lol *hugs everyone here*

2005-12-08 [HowlofDoom]: yay good idea *hugs everyone*

2005-12-08 [lustful.hearts]: lol

2005-12-08 [HowlofDoom]: does everyont feel all warm inside yet??? lol

2005-12-08 [Yes, I've left.]: hay all!...just joined this wiki...

2005-12-08 [L V F]: -shifty eyes0 0lurks around in the darkness-

2005-12-08 [x.Andrew Hollywood]: ya, hey i also just joined this wiki and wanted to say

hiii!!

2005-12-08 [erowen]: hi everyone

2005-12-08 [RabidSphinx]: oh...so, what is the senapsus of the body image discussion?

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: what are we talking about people???

2005-12-08 [RabidSphinx]: body image...Curves are sexy vs. Thin is beautiful and the WHOLE concept of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: oh, ok thanks [RabidSphinx]

2005-12-08 [RabidSphinx]: any time...(^_^)

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: ^ ^

2005-12-08 [RabidSphinx]: i watched the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show monday night. it was amazing

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: What happened during the show??

2005-12-08 [RabidSphinx]: it was Tyra's last runway show EVER....

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: Really?? Omg! Why though she is so pretty???

2005-12-08 [RabidSphinx]: she is getting older, and doesn't want to continue with Runway/fashion modeling anymore. she has a CD out, and two television shows, "America's Next Top Model" and her Talkshow, "tyra"...she wants to settle a little bit. she has been modeling since she was 16...she has traveled the world more than 2/3rds of her life, and just wants to relax, maybe have a family or something, and produce and guide other, younger, models now.

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: I see, well, I am glad she was a model, she is deffiantely the prettiest in victorias secret!

2005-12-08 [RabidSphinx]: i like Heidi Klum my self...but they are all so beautiful. Angel Gallery

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: Yea! They are but, she is like REALLY pretty I liked her the best! but, their all pretty, I love their clothes they have in the magazines I ALWAYS get stuff from there

2005-12-08 [RabidSphinx]: i can't afford stuff from there.. :( but i would get stuff if i could. well, also if i had a need for bras. i don't wear them...(they don't come small enough) but i like watching the shows...the women are just stunning...

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: omg! *sobs* I'm sorry, and the women are very stunning..

2005-12-08 [RabidSphinx]: are you sad that i don't have money? or because i don't have boobs...lol

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: both, thats really sad you can have mine lol they suck =P

2005-12-08 [RabidSphinx]: i wouldn't mind, like, a small Bcup really...that's not alot to ask for is it? :/

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: no, lol, for me it would be, *sighs* I dislike boobs lol

2005-12-08 [RabidSphinx]: life without them sucks though... *sighs*

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: Well, I understand your point of view...*sighs* I don't like them...trust me you done want them...

2005-12-08 [RabidSphinx]: i don't want BIG ones...back ache and stuff no thanks...but a LITTLE something would make me feel like a woman

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: I see, you'll get them soon,..well, I looked at you on your pics and your really little, skinny wise so you are gonna have to wait awhile before you get them..

2005-12-08 [x.Andrew Hollywood]: well hey you shouldn't be worring about your boobs because you have really pretty eyes...

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: lol! thank you that made the subject change and hopefully made [RabidSphinx] feel a little better!

2005-12-08 [x.Andrew Hollywood]: : D but it is true, i mean look at her pics...

2005-12-08 [apologies glances and messed up chances]: I know she is VERY pretty!

2005-12-09 [L V F]: -lurks around and watchs

2005-12-09 [x.Andrew Hollywood]: *asks [L V F] if he wants to come out of the shadows so we can see who he is*

2005-12-09 [Kagomeyasha]: Oh man, I missed too much. u_U;

2005-12-09 [zoloftzantac]: Hooray, a big welcome to our newest members [x.Andrew Hollywood] and [Yes, I've left.]! (broken record time, I've made a habit of posting reminders when ever new folks post here because I am concerned about things getting out of control) Fighting can get out of control and hurt people's feeling with out anything good coming of it. People have stong feelings about hate, but hate is what we are here to talk about, so expect that people will disagree with you here and please try to play nice. I would like us to listen to each other with an open ear and try to understand how other people feel while respecting (and maybe even loving) them

2005-12-09 [zoloftzantac]: Hi [L V F] you are very welcome to stay as long as you like. :)

2005-12-09 [zoloftzantac]: Can a 31 year old guy speak up on the subject with you making you young gals uncomfotable? (I'll try) I have NEVER had a girlfriend or lover who liked her own breasts. (and there are more than a few women in this group I'm talking about {okay, I used to be a slut} ) I think it is really a shame, I'm not sure where so many women get the idea that thier bodies aren't "good enough" (whatever that means) but many of them seem to feel that way. People have many differant body types and I think that's great.

2005-12-09 [The Knight]: Okay, 29 year old guy will make his 'uncomfotable-ing' comment too ;). I think in loving one's own body, or actually any part of one's, er, self, strength of mind has a lot to do. The body is hardly ever the problem. I used to work selling dresses, and I saw it all the time. Girls would look into the mirror, and they saw only what they wnated to see, either good or bad. In the end, they would not wear only the dress, but also all of their complexes. The best advise I can give to anyone, is don't worry. You're nicer than you see in the mirror, and, in the end, the body is just a container... go for the inside, it's worth it, darling.

2005-12-09 [L V F]: -comes out- -keeps silent for now-

2005-12-09 [x.Andrew Hollywood]: and also every guy has their own taste in women too ^_^, some might like the "big breasted" and some like "little breasts" lol

2005-12-09 [lustful.hearts]: yup yup lmao

2005-12-09 [James Von Fugger, King of the Zombies!]: damn straight

2005-12-10 [lustful.hearts]: yup yup soooo how is every1 here

2005-12-10 [HowlofDoom]: lol....